Transition Towns Forum » TransitionGroup: Cities

How can cities transition?

(17 posts)
  • Started 1 year ago by markobostonusa
  • Latest reply from jbriggs51
  1. markobostonusa
    Member

    I am just learning about Transition and thinking about trying to organize a local group here in a suburb of Boston in the US. My hometown is part of a very urban, densely populated region of the States stretching from here through New York to Washington, DC. This region is not unlike England in size and population. So I am looking for thoughts from comrades in England, where Transition has gone farthest, on a concern of mine:

    Our cities are a product of fossil fuels. Their very raison d'etre is to serve a fossil-fueled economy. How do they transition to a future without fossil fuels? Where will the food come from to feed the millions? Obviously allotments in city parks will not be enough. There is not enough farmland or open land of any kind within a reasonable trip by riverboat or horse-drawn or bicycle-drawn cart to feed the population.

    Putting that aside, let's assume somehow enough food is found to feed all the people. What will they be able to offer in exchange? There will not be a need for investment bankers, office assistants of many stripes, marketing directors, systems administrators and so on, who currently bring money into city economies that goes back out to pay for food from around the world. What is a viable economic model for big cities in an energy descent?

    These are issues that will face London, Birmingham, Manchester, and other large English cities. I know something about the Southeast. I suspect that the Home Counties will have a challenge feeding their own people and won't have much left over for London. Every region of England outside the Southeast has large cities that will consume all of the food that they can produce. Who will feed London or the West Midlands or West Yorkshire? What will these urban areas offer in return? Does anyone have any ideas that they could share? I am committed to helping bring transition to my region, but I want to have realistic ideas to present. Otherwise, I'm not sure how attractive Transition will be to city dwellers. And I think we need city dwellers on board to make this work politically.

    Thanks in advance for your ideas!

    Posted 1 year ago #
  2. Mark, I have moved your post into the area of the forum devoted to Transition Cities. You will find many topics related to this there:
    http://transitiontowns.org/forum/forum/transitiongroup-cities

    As you will see there, there was a Transition Cities conference in Nottingham last year, and you may also be interested to know that there is a fledgling Transition Los Angeles out there, who may very well have a few thoughts to share from a US perspective!

    Cheers,
    Shaun

    Posted 1 year ago #
  3. markobostonusa
    Member

    Shaun,

    Thanks for responding. I am curious where Los Angeles goes with this. Their position is in some ways even more challenging than that of English cities or the Northeast US since the nearest areas of farmland are on the other side of some steep and rugged mountain ranges, and even those areas rely on fossil-fuel-powered irrigation using water supplies that are diminishing due to climate change.

    I have been thinking about this more since I wrote my initial post. The more I think about it, the more I think that our transition model for large cities or metropolitan areas will have to involve some element of relocation. If people can't grow enough food where they are, and if those people are no longer in a position to import food from other places, then a solution would for people to move to places where food can be grown. This is a bit at odds with the standard Transition model, but there is an obvious moral (and political) problem with people having the luxury of more land than they need in Devon or Texas while thousands or millions are starving in London or in Los Angeles. Some of those starving people are unlikely to stay put, and it might be wise to think about how to accommodate their movement to avoid violence.

    I checked out some of the write-ups from the Transition Cities conference, and it seems that some people came close to this issue without addressing it outright. Still, maybe I can connect with some of the people who attended that conference to brainstorm further on this.

    Incidentally, I bought your book, Transition Timeline, today, and am eager to read it.

    Best wishes,

    Mark O'Malley

    Posted 1 year ago #
  4. I hope you find the book useful Mark - perhaps you'd like to think about contributing to a US-focused edition in future?

    One other thing that might interest you is that Transition Town Totnes have been doing some work with Geofutures on mapping the food footprints of British towns and cities: http://www.geofutures.com/2009/06/mapping-our-food-future/

    And I think we're all curious to see how Transition LA develops!

    Do report back through these forums as to how your thinking and investigations develop.

    Cheers,
    Shaun

    Posted 1 year ago #
  5. When I was in college I had a very uninspiring teacher. My way of acting out was to team up with a friend of mine and write ONE essay but change the font on the printer and reword it slightly. The teacher responded by giving both of us a ZERO grade on the essay. From that point onward, I busted my ass to try to pass the course. What I didn't know at the time was we only had one or two more opportunities to get graded on things, so it was a statistical impossibility to pass the course. So while I was already upset over the zero, not being given an opportunity to redeem myself made me positively livid that I wasted my time on a no-win situation.

    It's important for there to be a full objective understanding of the overshoot situation. People, including Rob, have a vested interest in conceiving of a sustainable earth in which everyone can be magically fed. If only we ate less meat, all went permaculture/biointensive, etc... then we could _just_ feed ourselves. Hmm. How convenient that the assessment is that we could _just_ squeak by. Could it be that we're just starting with a desired conclusion and working back to justify it? If the green revolution and fossil fuel use has done the equivalent of flunking a test with a zero grade, then we should come to terms with it. Let's not ignore such a scenario of the haves and the have-nots.

    If that's the case, some degree of lifeboat ethics is going to be inevitable, and it's something that transition towns (perhaps unwittingly) leads to with a decentralized local model.

    It's not the job of Transition Great Barrington to look after the welfare of Transition Newburyport or Transition Somerville. Each town will seek to steward its own ecological assets to protect its own interests. At least that's what I think they should do, otherwise it's not really about sustainability. If they have enough surpluses to trade in exchange for items they need, then they will do so. But I don't see that kind of free market surviving all the way through the process of collapse. If it does, it will be to the detriment of rural america, whether their resources are sucked dry or their land subdivided into oblivion with a relocation program.

    So I would suggest you decide which end of the fence you want to start on.

    The only thing that could fundamentally change the rules of the game is a heavily slowed-down decline in which birth rates take a nosedive to stave off disaster. But since the EDAP totally sidesteps that elephant in the room, I don't see that happening.

    In order to not rock the boat too much, Transition is forced to passively react to whatever reproductive decisions are inflicted on us by the masses rather than trying to challenge them.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  6. Thanks for an interesting post mos6507, these are indeed some of the key questions Transition faces, and that we all must consider.

    And I completely agree that there comes a point where overshoot has gone too far and we need to reconcile our actions to this fact. I don't personally believe it is clear that we are already there, but I would agree that it currently appears our most likely destination. Nonetheless, I always try to remember that the present position and trends set the direction of departure for our journey, not its final destination. Personally, while I see a small chance (or even a chance of a chance) of heading somewhere else together I feel driven to pursue it.

    I also do think that it's the job of one community of humans to look out for another, but that can be a long philosophical discussion, so maybe not one to pursue just now. I also think that you don't need a 'free market' to have trading.

    From your profile I see you're US-based, and I don't know so much about the food situation there, but I do think one thing that's overlooked (just as with the energy debate) is the demand side. Certainly here in the UK it's generally understood that we'd be a lot healthier if we ate less. Simply ate less. Hence the improvement in basic health here during WW2 etc. So while most food supply analysis is concerned with keeping up with demand, actually we can very sensibly look at getting by very well with less.

    And while the EDAP you're involved with may not address population issues, others certainly will, and my book certainly does. Before writing it I agreed that Transition hadn't really tackled this head on, and so in there my many collaborators and I do indeed lay out our attempts to try to challenge the reproductive habits of UK society.

    I'm interested in what strategies you are adopting in the US to try to shift this? Transition is what we make it, and certainly here in the UK I don't think it's short of boat-rockers.

    All the best

    Posted 1 year ago #
  7. benbrangwyn

    mos6507 - interesting points. I see you've been on the Transition Training and are likely to be headed to Vermont - possibly one of the most resilient states in the US judging by my one visit there a long while back and the discussions I've had with people there. I thought your posting about the $50k farm in what turned out to be redneckville was fascinating (http://doomsteaddiary.blogspot.com/2009/07/faggot.html), and a crucial indicator that the highly fortified lifeboats approach is so unappealing and certainly not an easy option.

    You question our ability to feed ourselves. Right now, there is enough calories and nutrition (though the latter is rather questionable, particulary in the US) for the entire population of the world. It's not food that certain groups/countries lack, it's the money to buy it. Or the land to grow it on themselves. So really we ought to be concentrating on wealth or land distribution rather than food distribution.

    In the UK we're undertaking a "Can Britain Feed itself" project. At the moment, with quite a lot of work done, it looks like the answer is yes. A key point here is that England probably can't feed itself, so it will have to stay on good terms with Wales and Scotland. Or invade them :¬)

    I share Shaun's view that the future is unpredictable, and I'm absolutely comfortable working with an intention towards transition, while holding significant uncertainties about the future. I'm committed to the view that:

      if we wait for governments, it'll be too little too late. If we do it on our own, it'll be too little. But if we do it as communities - proactively, intelligently, creatively and compassionately - it may just be enough just in time.

     
    I didn't always feel that way - I totally did doomster time researching and visiting permaculture options in the French Pyrenees, and somehow passed through that into an irresistable urge to get involved in transition work, leading to us setting up Transition Network.

    And if I really go deep inside and try to figure out what motivates me, it's:

    • a recognition that this planetary system regulates its climate by creating negative feedback mechanisms using biodiversity
    • that the more biodiversity there is, the more effective those feedback mechanisms are
    • that my life feels meaningful if I devote it to maximising biodiversity
    • Transition seems to me to be the most effective means for achieving that
    • that the ultimate human negative feedback mechanism may well be compassion

     
    Good luck with your own efforts during these challenging times.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  8. markobostonusa
    Member

    I am aware of the possibility that we are or will be in overshoot. However, I am committed to doing what I can to prevent a catastrophic die-off, if it can be prevented. I am committed to going down, if I must go down, fighting what I think is still probably an unnecessary die-off. I want to do whatever I can to keep alive a possibility of a humane solution. I agree with everyone that that humane solution has to include radical population control, but for it to be humane, it needs to be consensual and a cultural norm, somewhat as aversion to tobacco has become a cultural norm in many parts of the United States.

    The situation varies a lot from region to region, country to country, and continent to continent. As Benbrangwyn says, people are doing hardheaded scientific research and are coming to the conclusion that Great Britain can probably just achieve food self sufficiency with a concerted effort. You have suggested that it is suspicious that people are claiming that we can *just* get by, but I have only heard that claim made for Great Britain (or sometimes England, which Benbrangwyn suggests may not be the case), and I suspect, from my own geographic background, that it is probably true that England or Great Britain could just get by.

    Ireland, by contrast, will have it easy. On the other hand, a country like the Netherlands has really no hope of complete food self-sufficiency. The Dutch, who will also face a scary time with rising sea levels, are going to have to hope that their neighbors will have compassion.

    China and India are probably in serious trouble, for somewhat different reasons. Both are near self-sufficient now, but only thanks to chemical fertilizers. I think that we can probably compensate for a loss of chemical fertilizers with green manures and thorough recycling of human (and animal) wastes, properly composted, back into the soil. In China, however, they have seriously depleted and seriously polluted their water supply to the point that they depend on fossil-fuel-powered pumps for a dwindling supply. They are now also in the process of depleting needed agricultural land through urban and industrial development and contamination. As for India, the problem there is runaway population growth, which will very soon result in a population above any conceivable carrying capacity. (Likewise Bangladesh, which also faces the same problem of land loss to rising sea levels as the Netherlands.) Egypt is another country in serious trouble due to a high population relative to arable land and the Nile Delta's vulnerability to rising sea levels. There are other pockets of trouble scattered around the world, such as Rwanda and Burundi, Java, and so on.

    Still, I think on a global basis, we are probably still within our carrying capacity, but only with a concerted effort and a coordinated network of plans.

    As for the United States, where you and I apparently both live, mos6507, I really think that there is little question that we can be self-sufficient in food. Apart from unnecessary imports such as organic kiwis flown in from New Zealand or Chile or beef frozen and shipped from Honduras, I think that we still are self-sufficient in food. If we converted our massive soybean and corn fields from production for massive factory meat farms to smallholdings intensively cultivated for human consumption, I think that there is no question that the United States would have an abundance of food, with a surplus to share.

    Apart from the question of compassion, I do not think that it is remotely realistic that any but maybe the most isolated town (maybe a town in the Faroe or Aleutian Islands) can have any hope of safe self-sufficiency. As a geographer, I like to look at maps, so I know that Totnes is just 6 miles (a two-hour walk) up the road from Torbay, an urban area with 134,000 people. Do you really think that those 134,000 people are going to calmly face starvation while their neighbors up the road are living well?

    Just as it is inevitable that we are going to have to live with less energy, it is inevitable that those with land and food are going to face masses of very motivated people without enough land or food. Just as we face a choice between planning for a future with less energy or facing chaos when it hits, we also face a choice between involving our neighbors and taking their needs into account in our planning or facing desperation and violence from those neighbors when crunch time comes.

    You mention Great Barrington. I don't know if you live there. Great Barrington is a relatively isolated (and affluent) small town in western Massachusetts, for those of you who don't know it. However, the denser and poorer city of Pittsfield is just 20 miles away. That's a day's walk for a fit person, and even if a less-than-fit and hungry family had to sleep in the fields along the way (after plundering them for an evening meal), they could get to Great Barrington in two days or so. The cities of Springfield, Chicopee, and Holyoke, with their hundreds of thousands, are only about 40 miles away. If word traveled that food was to be had in Great Barrington, and/or in towns along the way (and word would travel), you can believe that those people would make the trek.

    What good will transition planning for Great Barrington or Totnes be if it does not take this reality into account? And I would argue strongly that a town defense force would be an ineffective response. Not only would it take large amounts of needed labor away from efforts to meet basic needs, it would also probably be ineffective considering how outnumbered the townspeople would be and the easy access to firearms in inner cities, in the United States at least.

    On a global level, this may be an issue as well. One option might be for the United States (or the United Kingdom) to make itself a fortress and fend off demands or attacks from Asia or other crowded places. But in an age of intercontinental nuclear missiles, this could be a gruesome option. Far better in my view, would be to help create a global movement to address our difficult reality head on and offer international cooperation and even food aid, where possible, to nations that implement effective programs to bring about rapid negative population growth by largely forgoing reproduction.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  9. "Do you really think that those 134,000 people are going to calmly face starvation while their neighbors up the road are living well?"

    If Torbay physically can not be self-sufficient, then the nightmare scenario will play out no matter what Torbay does. If that happens, any gains to be had from Transition will be short-lived. The question is, do you plan for that ahead of time, or do you just assume that if it gets that far you just throw your hands up and let Totnes be overrun for the sake of upholding some pacifistic ideal?

    If the underlying premise behind Transition is dependent on us NOT being in global Overshoot then it's on pretty shaky ground, not to mention alienating a great segment of doomers who hold tomes like Catton's Overshoot or Limits to Growth as their bibles.

    If Torbay doesn't wipe out Totnes then China may nuke the West in its death throes, or India and Pakistan will go at it. The various macro-level doomsday scenarios brought on by export-land model on vital resources is endless.

    I think everyone here should read Holgrem's Future Scenarios book for more background on this issue (or the web version). He does not shy away from the possibility of any of these scenarios. It's hard to bash Holgrem, the cofounder of Permaculture, as a misanthropic tinfoil hat survivalist. Holgrem has many recommendations for how to insert permaculture into the mix to ameliorate these problems but he is much more sober and fact-based in his assessments of which way things are more likely to go in the real world.

    As they say, hope for the best, but expect the worst.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  10. It seems we all agree that if a place physically cannot be self-sufficient, then it should not plan on being self-sufficient. If the disagreement is over whether the UK and US could feed themselves, then you need to present some evidence to say that they can't, mos6507. Certainly the research and evidence I drew on in my book seemed to believe that the UK can do so.

    However, as you might rightly point out, the question of whether we are in global overshoot is a deeper one, which covers far more than just simple food calculations.

    Now of course there are indeed plenty of realistic doomsday scenarios (and my book doesn't shy away from them either), but that doesn't mean that there aren't realistic alternative scenarios too. In my experience the different outlooks on where we might be heading tend to come down to an analysis of something like 'human nature'. If we apply the lessons of history to figure out how humans will react in future, then of course we will find that humanity will continue down its current trajectory, and of course we all agree that that looks pretty nasty.

    For me Transition is predicated on the experiment of trying to act in a different way, and so write a new story for the future of humanity. There are plenty of reasons one might think it unlikely to succeed, but none I've found to deem it impossible. Perhaps doomers tend to be those who realistically assess the probabilities, and Transitioners tend to be those who prefer to work to change the odds. These are by no means mutually exclusive, but this may explain why the two groups sometimes perceive each other as naive/unimaginative.

    Incidentally, since respect for David Holmgren seems to be universal here, this is what he had to say about my book, which developed alongside (and very much acknowledges) his Future Scenarios work:

    "While definitely focused on empowering the community rather than the policy makers, this book is much more than a folksy agenda for comfort in the crisis. It is a serious plan to reconstruct society in the light of ecological and energetic realities, informed by the best evidence about the vortex of forces influencing the global crisis."

    Posted 1 year ago #
  11. markobostonusa
    Member

    Mos6507 says: "If Torbay physically can not be self-sufficient, then the nightmare scenario will play out no matter what Torbay does. If that happens, any gains to be had from Transition will be short-lived. The question is, do you plan for that ahead of time, or do you just assume that if it gets that far you just throw your hands up and let Totnes be overrun for the sake of upholding some pacifistic ideal?"

    I'm not sure what you're arguing here. I am assuming (without knowing the place, so I may be wrong) that Torbay cannot feed itself. In any case, there are certainly urban areas that can't. I disagree that this means the "the nightmare scenario will play out no matter what Torbay does". If Torbay is limited to its own resources, you may be right. But what I'm arguing is that it is in the greater interests of both Torbay and Totnes (and other surrounding towns and villages) to cooperate on this. The way that this would have to work would be for places with lots of land to accept that some of that land will have to be ready to support people relocated from places with less land. Places with lots of land may have to give up the luxury of using that land to graze 100 head of beef to only partly meet the food requirements of 20 people, when that same land could fully meet the food requirements of 100 relocated people. Places with lots of land would need to understand that they are part of a larger society and that they ignore the needs of that larger society at their peril. I would argue that this is the only hope of preventing "the nightmare scenario". I argue this not based on a "pacifist ideal". I am not a pacifist and believe that physical force may need to be applied to stop selfish individuals from using violence to claim more than their share. However, I think that planning as a community to use violence to claim an unfair share when one's neighbors are in need probably does lead inevitably to a nightmare scenario.

    Incidentally, I want to add that on a practical level, I don't think that accepting my argument entails any radical change in the Transition concept, which I think is brilliant. I agree with Rob Hopkins that the Transition model is likely to work best on a small scale of around 5,000 people, such as a small town or an urban neighborhood. The only adjustment I would make is for the "awareness raising" part of the process to acknowledge the uneven distribution of land and people and to make planning for population shifts a standard part of energy descent planning.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  12. "If Torbay is limited to its own resources, you may be right. But what I'm arguing is that it is in the greater interests of both Torbay and Totnes (and other surrounding towns and villages) to cooperate on this."

    Cooperation only goes so far in the face of hard ecological limits.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  13. "The way that this would have to work would be for places with lots of land to accept that some of that land will have to be ready to support people relocated from places with less land. Places with lots of land may have to give up the luxury of using that land to graze 100 head of beef to only partly meet the food requirements of 20 people, when that same land could fully meet the food requirements of 100 relocated people."

    Then you are talking about an oppressive dictatorship required to force compliance.

    And what if 1,000 relocated people need to be fed and the land in question can only feed 100? It's still a dead-end. So not only have you siezed people's hard-earned land at the barrel of a gun, but the lifeboat sinks anyway!

    It's robbing Peter to pay Paul.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  14. benbrangwyn

    For those people who praise Holmgren yet argue for the unavoidability of "last man standing" scenario over scarce resources, I'd like to highlight an Energy Descent youtube discussion with David Holmgren here:

     
    It's 25 mins and really worth the time. If you have to cherry pick, listen to the section from 12:30 about how eco-systems deal with energy descent and increasing scarcity of resources - they discard "last man standing" strategies and start cooperating.

    A learning for humans...?

    Posted 1 year ago #
  15. markobostonusa
    Member

    Thanks for that link, Ben! I am new to the idea of permaculture, but what Holmgren says makes lots of sense and is really quite hopeful.

    I certainly do not advocate oppressive dictatorships. My hope instead is that, in the face of this great challenge, people will move from selfish and ultimately self-destructive strategies to more cooperative strategies, just as Holmgren suggests, largely out of enlightened self-interest. I wholeheartedly support the bottom-up and grassroots basis of Transition. My thought is that it will be in the interest of local Transition initiatives to network and to cooperate in planning. That networking and cooperating, I'm thinking, will have to lead to some consensual agreements about how to manage the transition on a broader societal or national scale, including fair allocations of land. I would want this to happen as a result of consciousness raising at a grassroots level and consensual or democratic agreements at a network or national (or even international) level.

    Nor do I advocate moving 1,000 people onto land that can support only 100. No more than 100 people should live on that land. I do advocate judicious and efficient uses of land so that the land can provide sustainable support to as many people as is consistent with human health and happiness.

    Incidentally, the first stages of the crisis may well not require a mass migration from cities to rural areas. There may still be enough fossil fuel to power urban economies at a lower level of energy consumption. This would be an excellent time for city dwellers to learn gardening and other practical manual skills. It may be only the next generation that will need to move in large numbers out of the urban areas. Still, I think that it is important in our long-term thinking and planning to recognize the inevitability of that movement sometime during the next 60 years or so.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  16. "My hope instead is that, in the face of this great challenge, people will move from selfish and ultimately self-destructive strategies to more cooperative strategies, just as Holmgren suggests, largely out of enlightened self-interest."

    It's my hope as well, but hope must be tempered with realism. Remember the Donner Party.

    "There may still be enough fossil fuel to power urban economies at a lower level of energy consumption. This would be an excellent time for city dwellers to learn gardening and other practical manual skills."

    I would hope one of those practical skills involved birth control.

    The constant kicking of the can down the road to avoid dealing with population leaves a gaping hole in any attempt towards true sustainability. It's not something that just resolves itself painlessly.

    Posted 1 year ago #
  17. jbriggs51
    Member

    Hello everyone, thought I’d drop my two pence worth into the debate or at least start one! I know most of you aren’t going to agree with what I’m about to say but please just give it a chance.
    Sorry to say it but I think it’s incredibly naive to think the future isn’t going to descended into some form of violence. All though the transition model provides a good framework for co-operative sharing it still leave’s many people out. It’s a case of hindsight after the fact. Just check the local papers in new transition areas for evidence of “another bunch of doom mongers “ attitude in the general populace. When the global supply chain collapses for whatever reason people will fight to keep what they have and fight to get more. Think of the violence at fuel stations in the southern states after Katrina, when Rita started to move northwest. Humans are animals and will behave with the same-programmed responses to a perceived threat.
    Although most animal packs co-operate it’s because it gives the individual greater chance of survival and reproduction. And they usually group together behind a recognized leader, the alpha male/female.
    And a quick thought to our American cousins. There may be thousands of legal and illegal guns floating about but just how do you get hold of the ammo if there are no trucks or ships any more?
    If people are short of food, water etc.etc. They will move on mass to where they think is even if it is just a rumour and if they are hungry enough or thirsty enough or cold enough they aren’t going to negotiate.
    The main problem is the transition models success. It does provide a model for community’s to survive in an energy starved world but what happens on a national level? So far all I see is a good blueprint for a feudal society. I admit I haven’t managed to get to any of the agm’s but has anyone discussed a post peak political structure, what about the role of the police and law and order in general? Or transport systems? Has anyone thought of setting up a skills academy to keep skills alive? Or are we to expect these things to carry on, like some great clockwork mechanism?
    Anyway getting back on topic, my proposal is to discuss the creation of a national transition peacekeeping taskforce based on the transition model. Largely self sufficient, its role would be to mediate disputes supervise the safe movement of people and defend people under direct threat. They would operate on an invite basis only.
    What I’m aiming for here is a group similar to the Jedi , anla’shok or knights of the round table. Trained to a high standard, acting independently but recognizing each transition group’s independence.
    Oh and by the way if any one wants to see how quickly things can degenerate I would recommend the T.V. series Jericho. Especially how relations with New Bern change over time.
    So is this ok? I’m not suggesting militarising the movement or even creating our own military service. What I am interested in is how people feel about the existence of such a group, and is it something they want to see, something they could be comfortable seeing or something they need (the three things are completely different).
    I would love to go into details about what i would like to create but that’s something I’ll have to post a link to later.

    Posted 11 months ago #

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