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Transition Towns Forum » Websites for Transition Initiatives » TransitionWebProject

1. marcpalmer
   Member

   It occurred to me, mulling this over, that the hosting mechanism for the platform is a fundamental issue and needs to be seen as a requirement, not an afterthought.

   How one reaches a decision on this however is also dependent on whether the platform is intended for actual contributing members of a TT group somewhere in the world, or "all comers" who may eventually be using it for locating local services that support the local currency, or perform currency transactions or authentication. The latter issues will require support for potentially huge amounts of traffic if transition is a success.

   Central hosting would make things much simpler. There's one website to maintain/update/debug, you can scale it using Amazon's EC2 compute cloud, etc.

   However this goes against the spirit and the actual requirements really, of local transition groups. Where's the resilience if you use centralized Amazon EC2 or some other scalable compute cloud / ISP? Who knows if Amazon will even be trading post peak-oil - the energy costs of data centres will at least send the costs through the roof, perhaps making elastic computing a bad proposition anyway (funding of hosting for a high demand scalable global website is yet another issue to discuss). Who's to say free/cheap/reliable internet access will be available internationally 24/7 after peak oil?

   So ideally one would have individual sites running the local "copy" of the platform, dealing with only their local data, but the published documents with global relevance available globally (albeit perhaps by a resource constrained internet conection). These could even run off local networks (a revival of local ISPs previously wiped out by the majors and "virtual ISP" market?), or ad-hoc wifi networks or perhaps Wimax or some as yet not invented high speed mid-range wireless net.

   There are several challenges with this however:

   1. It means local people have to be able to set up and maintain (and backup) the system
   2. How would such a system scale up to handle high local demand / local currency implementation etc
   3. It means the environment in which the system would run would be unpredictable

   The above, in my opinion is a recipe for disaster, unless some smart - and probably technically complex solution.

   A total brainfart at the moment, but I could envisage a peer-to-peer local networking system with virtual machines like Amazon EC2, a sort of mishmash of something like Seti@Home and VMWare/Parallels that would mean that adding capacity would just be a case of someone else in the local area with (local) net access plugging in a PC/Mac and running the application that does the peer-2-peer and virtual machine bootstrapping and network management.

   It would be far more flakey than Amazon EC2 or similar... but can we actually rely on a global ISP?

   Or do we just consider how to get TO peak oil, with as much activity beforehand by local groups, and hang the consequences for what happens after it all hits the fan?

   Posted 1 year ago #

2. nickshanks
   Member

   "Who knows if Amazon will even be trading post peak-oil" What are you going on about?
   The two are about as unrelated as you can get.

   Will birds still be migrating south after peak oil? Of course!

   However using local servers and web techies keeps wealth in the local oeconomy and not in California.

   Posted 1 year ago #

3. marcpalmer
   Member

   Not unrelated at all. The energy costs of the Amazon server farm are already high and are likely to be getting a lot worse. The point is that it may make cloud computing like their EC2 service which is based on a low price per unit of cpu time into something that is no longer commercially viable. Even now, in the long term cloud computing is often less cost effective than dedicated servers anyway etc.

   So my point was that the market for EC2 may not be around and hence the service might not, if energy costs spiral, as it may become a less attractive prospect compared to running your own.

   Posted 1 year ago #

4. PeterA
   Member

   I suggest a centralised server solution to begin with, moving to a load balanced, decentralised solution in the longer term as traffic increases. This would ensure resillience through servers based in different geographic locations with localised backups for further security.

   Regarding the software, I believe that it is essential the platform is centralised enabling all the transition initiatives to be able to talk with each other and share inforamtion/best practice. Producing 1000's of independant TT websites will stifle progress as a movement and will not be good use of technology. The real opportunities lie in collaboration and sharing.

   Posted 1 year ago #

5. sambris
   Member

   Hi I suggest that we start with a centralised system and move towards mirroring the content in localities when technical/infrastructure capabilities exist to do so.

   Aiming to have at least one mirror server in another country is a lesson that may be useful to learn from the indymedia experiences.

   Posted 1 year ago #

6. sambris
   Member

   There is a debate happening within indymedia circles around organising some webhosting services for activist and non-profit sites.

   Details here;
   http://www.hacktivista.net/hacktionlab/index.php/HacktionLab_Leeds_2008/02#Proposal_for_RiseUp-style_services_for_the_UK

   Posted 1 year ago #

7. audaye
   Member

   It really doesn't matter where the server/s are physically as long as they run on renewable energy and are not in an energy intensive data centre.
   There are a few alternative set ups including grid computing and virtualisation. Grid systems have less of a footprint in terms of total energy consumption and virtualisation offers an elegant and more commonly maintained solution whilst maximising cpu and energy efficiency. For true energy costs of data centre computing this facinating expose paper
   http://projects.oucs.ox.ac.uk/lowcarbonict/powerpoints/BCS%20DCSG%20OUCS%2020080318%20-%20speakers%20notes.pdf
   on a real datacentre by Liam Newcombe was presented http://projects.oucs.ox.ac.uk/lowcarbonict/sound/liam.mp3 at the JISC Low carbon ICT conference http://projects.oucs.ox.ac.uk/lowcarbonict/ .
   It is likely in most cases, that the individual host space is on a maintained virtual server anyway and so the consideration is to look at the eco credentials of the hosting company, and there are plenty that either subscribe to renewable energy supplies and or offset (whatever you might think about that) in sufficient amounts to claim carbon neutrality.

   Posted 1 year ago #

8. dahacouk
   Member

   As I said in:

   http://transitiontowns.org/forum/topic.php?id=169&replies=3#post-838

   I see this as a very distributed system. We should seek to define standard practices and guidelines to enable TTs to share comments, forum posts, events and ideas in a semantic-a-way as possible. If TTs don't want to set up there own website on an ISP then they should be able to host with the "mothership" but in either case syndication of content is key here. Everyone should be using OpenID so that it doesn't matter which service one is logged into.

   With regards to using "renewable energy" I'd say it was desirable and we should push our suppliers to use it or move from them if feasible and not too expensive.

   Cheers Daniel

   Posted 1 year ago #

9. tomma100
   Member

   On behalf of Rob Weston (contact details below...)

   Hi Audaye, Hi Everybody,

   Well, Tom and I originally proposed yesterday's meeting in Bristol in order to explore what he and I and others are doing through Ethical Junction and to make sure that a) there were no duplications of effort over what is, to a large extent, a synergistic agenda and b) to offer support in the managed growth of the Transition movement through, among other things, our access to around four million 'ethically minded' citizens.

   It turns out that my unintentional 'Reply All' message a week ago (done in haste when dashing off for a week away) was accidentally prescient in that the meeting evolved quite rapidly into a discussion of how the Ethical Junction platform, developed over the last three years, might be of some potential use to Transition Initiatives - and the Transition movement as a whole. Tom, to everyone's surprise (including his own, I suspect) offered the EJ platform for Transition use, for its own modoification, use and 'ownership' (subject only to the costs of stripping out the EJ innards and preparing it for its new additional role). I ought to add that, as I understand it, this would be done, if it is deemed of potential use to all concerned, on the standard OS basis whereby the user community as a whole also has access to a non-proprietary resource thus created.

   This, if it proves useful and desirable when compared to other options, may help with the Transition platform issue. What it doesn't deal with - and we didn't cover at the meeting - was item b), mentioned above: what we can do to assist in the orderly 'spreading of the word' and consequent 'managed proliferation' (it's like a permaculture design, Rob - we may be in grave danger of falling hordes of supporters, though certainly not numerically :) .

   So, my thinking is:

   1. We would, as it turned out, have done well to have had Audaye, Josef et al at the meeting
   2. They and others will, I'm sure, have useful things to bring to the now enriched conversation as it unfolds from here
   3. We will need to answer the question 'who and how many' are the participants that require support from the platform
   4. Question 4 will require that we also address the 'managed proliferation' matter
   5. I am happy to offer support in the proliferation/mass media/communications - ie TV, radio, online, press etc - part (that's what I do) and I believe Tom is still up for helping with the 'digital management' part that ensues
   6. I shan't be at all offended - and I don't think Tom will be either - if the support offered in '5', above, is deemed surplus to requirements :)

   I hope that helps more than it hinders in clarification...

   Rob
   ________________________________________
   Robert Barnard-Weston BA MSc FRSA
   Bloomfield House
   146 Bloomfield Road
   Bath
   BA2 2AS
   England
   Tel +44 1225 420105

   Posted 1 year ago #

10. audaye
    Member

    ***ref post#900, #899 and earlier***
    "guidelines and standard practices" agreed these are important and should form an aspect of this project please note the importance of a dedicated site for this to be grounded on. http://transitiontowns.org/forum/topic.php?id=239&replies=4#post-906

    Renewable energy is much more than desirable it is imperative! The ICT sector is currently responsible for more CO2 emissions than the aviation industry (note though that the emissions produced aren't emitted with the same radiative forcing) and was estimated to be responsible for over 1 billion tonnes globally (figure from 2007).(http://www.globalactionplan.org.uk/event_detail.aspx?eid=2696e0e0-28fe-4121-bd36-3670c02eda49)
    For the UK estimates put it at 10% of uk wide emissions. There is no doubt - even from the major industries in the sector that it is a big contributer to anthropogenic climate change, so whilst great strides are being made in the efficiency of computing and the lifecycle of manufacture to disposal 60% of the responsibility is affected by our choices. So not only to avoid hypocrisy and set an example, but to reduce GHG emissions also renewable energy to power our web apps is vital.

    Posted 1 year ago #

11. SteveAtkins
    Member

    Hi everyone,

    I figured it may be a while before the transition software platform is ready - and we needed a website to start promoting our great unleashing in April 2009, so I've been setting up a website....NOTE: under construction, need to fix the annoying page jumping to right in Firefox !...:

    http://www.transitiontowndorchester.org

    We wanted the website to be as eco as possible & decided to go with a hosting company with 100% certified renewable energy: http://hostpapa.co.uk/green/go-green.shtml

    I'm now looking for 'Good Links' for eco web surfing:

    1. Internet Service Providers
    2. Hosting companies
    3. Computer power/ laptop solar panels, etc

    Please post any suggestions & links here http://transitiontowns.org/forum/topic.php?id=249&replies=1

    Thanks
    Steve

    Posted 1 year ago #

12. josiah
    Member

    Reply to Rob's post (that came via Tom).

    I lack the technical know-how so forgive me if I'm asking a daft question but...

    Could you clarify what EJ are actually offeriing?

    I thought at first that you and Tom were offering the EJ platform as a tool for the software development project - with the addition of some elements that would allow collaborative working this would be great, but would seem like taking on extra work when this kind of thing: https://www.openplans.org already exists.

    On reading more carefully I thought that perhaps you meant that EJ could be developed AS the new TT software platform...Is this the case? Certainly there are some excellent features on the EJ site, but I'm not convinced it represents the best starting point. As I say this is probably because I lack the technical know-how - without getting into too much detail could you explain how what you're proposing might work?

    Josiah

    Posted 1 year ago #

13. audaye
    Member

    I think that it is clear that we need a dedicated site ( post and discussion: http://transitiontowns.org/forum/topic.php?id=239&replies=4#post-906 )
    to organise all of this material and that which is to come. I suggest that a focused discussion of this is articulated in an actual meeting Virtual or otherwise.

    I agree that it is indeed a little puzzling as to what is exactly being offered by EJ here, but let's be clear that if it is used it won't be open source, Tom correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like the EJ site is not created under a GNU GPL licence, hence the stripping out of 'innards'. It will need releasing to the community and a lot of extra difficulties befall projects that attempt to become open source out of a proprietary background, ones that i believe we won't want to struggle with, sustainability of the community and relicensing of proprietary work being two. There may be some creative ways around this notwithstanding Josiah's comment on suitability, is it actually what we need?

    In case this discussion is slipping into evaluation mode can a moderator port the relevant bit to the relevant forum please?

    - maybe this highlights our need for a dedicated project site which really doesn't need that much to get going just some basic tools.

    Posted 1 year ago #

14. garyalex
    Moderator

    I would like to return to the original subject of this thread: a centralised or a decentralised system.

    The current situation is that we have a centralised system in this wiki and forum, with pages for any local initiative that wants it, but also many other independent initiatives. Many of the TTs have their own websites now, based around Wordpress, Drupal, or just html. Norwich has set up a set of Google groups for discussion, plus a very basic html website. Les Squires in Colorado is rapidly setting up Ning-based platforms for the US, New Zealand and other countries. When I suggested to Les that Ning might be a blind alley, he said he would change to a better alley when one appeared.

    The Ning-based sites all can talk to each other, and have a single login, but I doubt if any of the others can.

    Before getting into technical issues, I think the most pressing need is for technical and social support. The strength of the Ning sites is that it has Les handling both. He sets up the sites, develops them, and continually encourages and facilitates their use. I suspect that many of the local TT sites have very limited support.

    So the first requirement is to set up teams that can look after the technical side and can create content and encourage people to do that too. This probably would often be the case initially for a regional or national area.

    Secondly, I think it is vital that local transition groups, and perhaps even active theme groups within them, have their 'own' websites, in the sense that they create and manage content, discussions, etc. and perhaps even do a little customising of look and feel (logo? colours?) so they get a sense of ownership.

    This might, however, be part of a larger scale site. We could perhaps use sub-domains to give nice urls (ex. norwich.transitioneastanglia.org, or food.norwich.transitioneastanglia.org).

    So I see a recursive structure of groups, where each level appears as a portal, with links and feeds from sub-groups, parallel and larger scale groups.

    Also, from the point of view of resilience, local control and local suitability, we want a distributed system. Initially that might be regionally, based upon where a sufficient technical and social support team can be set up.

    Each hub should also act as a mirror site to neighbouring hubs and perhaps larger scale hubs. This allows easy rebuilding in the case of major technical failures, and also facilitates creating feeds. It would also encourage the technical teams of each hub to keep in contact and provide mutual support to each other.

    Single login (open ID or equivalent) should blur the separation between the different hubs for users.

    How does that sound to you?

    Gary

    Posted 1 year ago #

15. chris
    Member

    That sounds good to me.

    Posted 1 year ago #

16. Anonymous
    Unregistered

    Gary's suggestion sounds very good. I feel decentralised is the way forward. And just to rephrase Gary's words, the decentralised system could reflect the structure of the underlying "internet" with nodes connecting seamlessly together, offering resilience and flexibility.

    When one is surfing the net how often is one aware of jumping from server to server? (only by the design and the URL change)

    Posted 1 year ago #

17. datumpoint
    Member

    Globalised localisation, centralised decentralisation. Microcosm Macrocosm

    I would guess that one has to utilise whatever is available for us to network information first at a local level, then to influence the global community and back again. "Ethically" sourced may well b 'preferable' but to date unviable?

    I also guess by natural progression we will achieve what is possible.

    I would also suppose that 'By Any Means Necessary' if it is coming to the choice between inertia (with respect to survival)and an ethical code break, may stretch the boundries somewhat.

    If we are in for a penny we are in for a pound, the TT movement is global and utilises global structures and i imagine will do for some time.

    I do not quite know if I actually aided the situation here but......????

    Posted 1 year ago #

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